This one:




I've found that developers of "games as a service" occasionally bring in new staff, come under new management, etc. and then start making changes that don't benefit anybody; however, they do look good (as they're "developing new features" and "improving outdated implementations" and whatnot). Now, I'm not going to be nearly as harsh as Wind, but if this is a case of a new-to-the-team developer or manager making changes without ever having played the game for any period of time and without having had long study sessions about game economy and how such changes are going to alter the economy, then I feel like everyone, not just the players, are suffering. The players, seeing this change, are seething at the developers for not listening, but they may hate the changes (or don't see a point in certain changes) and have their hands tied just as much as the players do.


Let's say, for instance, that, considering a build similar to last year's (before the current changes went through), a large portion of in-game, inter-player pass sales are for two things: skillers (or skiller foals) for trophies and retired coats for collection and trophy purposes. Because there are people that buy coats and sell them post-retirement, they earn quite a bit of passes, and because top teams both win Prix and rosettes, they are highly sought after for geldings, who in turn make them passes that they use to further invest in their games. The majority of the rest are for Divine sales, some also for trophies.

These players then have control of the "free-to-play pass market", as it were. The passes they earn in game go to furthering their control of the market. However, these are not monopolies. It is possible, through smart, strategic investment, to further your assets in these markets.


And then the trophies change. No longer are all the Divines required for trophies, but all the money that was being spent on Divines every year to fill up these trophies are now gone. Wasted. That could have been spent elsewhere: more AP for better breeding capabilities, more GAs for broader collections, or even a real life vacation or a new skill or different hobby. All this money loyal customers have been spending is now for naught. I know many are still soured over this.
Not only that, but now GAs only count if you put them on yourself. A good portion of the market crashed at that point. No longer did you have the "luxury" of buying them from sales - from other players - and now there's no point in funding other people's pass markets.
That brings us to the final, present clip, and a single question: ...... are you trying to punish your top teams for being top teams? Because that's what this change does. It costs a horrendous amount (money, time, passes, mental energy, etc.) to achieve and maintain top GP - and that's if you're lucky enough to get there! But now, with this change, skillers will be relegated to Grand Prix situations. There's no point in buying skillers that could just win rosettes. As others pointed out, skiller prices could go down, but even those won't sell nearly as well. Why? Because winning rosettes with a single horse is possible with top-level skillers. That trophy is a good thing that you can pay for without needing Gullfaxi or any of the other top-level Divines that come around once in a blue moon. Yeah, you get Etrian from the trophies, but that takes a long time and a lot of effort that this could hinder.

So top teams are getting less, their players are getting paid less, and to make up the deficit, I assume they're hoping players buy more passes?
Divines are now wasted money.
GAs require passes.
So... right after we get a survey to appeal to us, we get gouged?
Is there anywhere we can air our grievances straight to the developers and KNOW we're getting heard?


Mods - I wasn't sure what you wanted spoilered (and I do agree with Junie), so feel free to spoiler what you need spoilered.

Thank you for the clarification WindWalker2

Windwalker2 and DragonTrickster, agreed.

I used to feel like player feedback actually was heard and the game was changing for the better as we suggested things, but when we had a big change in admins sometime in the last year (I can't remember exactly when, but like four or five admins left or accounts were switched over to new people all around the same time), it suddenly felt as if feedback from players was no longer heard or valued. Around the same time, Tyche's Crowns were solidified as the new promo luck item, pass amount required for new divines through filling the fragment gauge with luck items went up to an average of 3-4k (it had averaged 2k before that), and these big changes started coming in.

There are some things I like about the changes, but certainly a lot I do not. I won't get into that more here since I just don't even feel the need to give feedback anymore because I truly feel it won't matter anymore. As you said, DragonTrickster, why give a survey for us just to turn around and make a change that will cause a bunch of chaos and ultimately be bad for most players? They even had the gumption to ask us for personal info (I distinctly remember a question near the end of the survey asking for our email if we wanted to maybe be contacted for more feedback), but never the decency to follow-up that they may be in touch or actually have involved any players. I am completely convinced that my email will now be sold to some third-party advertising group for a quick buck.

How many of the last few promos has the majority been disappointed in the prizes or design of the promo itself? Most of them. What are we seeing coming in this spoiler thread? More promos with very lackluster prize lists and little creativity in design.

I'll keep playing this game the way I have been since I do not tend to try to be competitive, but if I were a really serious player, I would quit today because it is clear that the game developers don't care about players' opinions about the game quality or the amount of time, energy, and money they put into the game. These kind of players' assets are not protected or valued so why continue to put any faith in that they will continue to hold their worth? You'd be better off buying a real, physical thing.

Mr Krabs said it best. Money, money, money. Tyche's Crowns were a must because of someone's boneheaded move to make BMI luck item divines. I get HOPs every other day because of grail divines. The ONLY good promos left are Black Friday, Christmas time, and maybe the occasional daily one hour sale. Adding the ability to get these auras is gonna crash the game in time. We cried about not getting through promos without passes so here we are now going through promos but the top prize, not worth squat, is behind a paywall of fragments. Smart move right now would be to allow ALL divines to be sold in sales.

Players talked about items losing their value due to being given away too much; players talked about wanting cheaper promotions; players liked having lots of promotions ...
Yup, it's a classic case of be careful what you ask for. Lots of cheaper promotions. Players wanted to a guarantee built into divines in luck items, so fragments were added ... now players don't like the ripples that developed from that addition. [NB: Players does not necessarily refer to the same group of players every time.]



Ripple, ripple, ripple ... And do you like set bonus divines? Do you like your divines to offer useful perks? Would you like to add a new variety of special horse now or later?

That's not actually why fragments were added. The guaranteed fragment system came as a result of new laws against gambling in children's games. I'm not sure Howrse was required to do something, they might have done it up front to make sure they didn't end up in trouble. At least that's what I recall. But yeah, a lot of players complained about not being able to finish promos and now generally you can finish them but the final prize is lesser and I'd swear the ratings for promos did indeed go up.

Personally, I'd like a variety which is why I'm so disappointed they changed the cards promo (which was always a very popular promo even when other promos were cited as too expensive). But I'm reserving full judgement until I see just how far along we can get now without passes. I was more disappointed that they changed promos like pinatas and wandering horses that used to be you could finish them with very few passes and get the divine, especially if you were an older player and had things set up beforehand. The game definitely doesn't reward older players as much as it used to.

But man, these trophies . . . they are really making huge changes to the gameplay. I don't recall anyone asking for the trophy system to be changed . . .

Back when I first played, I constantly heard people complaining about promos being sooooo expensive. And I defended it. I talked about how we got good items for what we spent, how the Divines were useful to the game, how the game had to make money to be upkept (pay developers, pay server costs, pay shareholders, etc.). Yet everyone was just like "it's too expensive please lower the cost" whereas I was about to go on a rampaging petition to bring back a certain promo that I loved but that only ever had one iteration.

Fragments definitely sound like a response to anti-gambling laws. Although, btw, GACHA laws (and it's gacha; you can't tell me otherwise) in many countries require clear odds to be stated. Still waiting for that one!

The game actually seems to be punishing long-time players. Give us a near-useless Divine that older players probably have in Cards while something that actually could be useful gets relegated to luck items and prizes that nobody asked for. Remove all the trophies long-time players have been dumping money into to give a system that newer players can thrive off of just as much. Rerun promos with useless breeding Divines and require them for those new trophies, meaning older players have to shell out for something they already have just to keep up.

I know what you mean Dragon! I was like, dude, what is all this whining about getting good stuff for nothing? Because that's exactly what it was. Everyone wanted to be able to finish the promo and get the divine without spending money and how it was unfair that only people who could afford to pay or could log on at least once a day could win the divines. But even then, there were some promos that were heavy costs and others that were heavy time and you could complete them for very little cost if you invested time and effort. Variety again, something I always appreciate.

I never thought it was unfair that those who paid would get the good stuff, it's a free to play game and that's how these games go. I spent a lot of time on my pass horse farm so that I could earn passes and save them up so that every now and then I could actually finish the promo and get the divine. This is indeed the result of all of those people who whined. Promos are finishable for free but worth a lot less. I'm okay if some of the promos are like that. I just wish they would stop making all the promos like that.

they tried to make those people happy by giving them Yggdrassil . . . changing pass horses forever. *sigh*

*devaluing pass horses forever


There's no longer any real benefit to sending horses to Yggdrasil and no tradeoff for resetting it when you've collected all the (mostly lackluster for the amount of work) prizes. I've heard of several people that just couldn't care less about Yggdrasil and so never kill off their horses. (Meanwhile, my hubby asks me at least once a week how well Yggdrasil's feeding.)

I like the change away from pass horses. I didn't have time to work lots of horses and AP farm them. To me that's just make work whereas I like the objectives. To me they are like crossword puzzles or brainteasers.

I appreciate that divines are easier to get now. I think it's more fair to newer players and allows people to collect some of the more interesting artworks on the game. I never wanted to kill off my horses so I've never gotten an Yggdrasil. Any horse I work long enough for it to get old is worth P. Stone-ing.

I am not happy with the overhaul of the Silver Apple and Golden Apple trophies and the way the Collections work. I wish they would put that back to the way it was.

Also, my general rank has fallen 300 places since peaking near 200. I think it's because I mostly have low skill and young horses. But my seniority and number of trophies ranks are fairly high. I find that odd.

-romikat

I actually bedgrudgingly agree with you Romikat The objectives are better and I appreciate that everyone has more of a chance to get passes without so much "destroy your hands" work.

What I do miss is the variety. Some promos were extremely expensive to finish while others could be done if you put in work and/or had some foreknowledge and others were just heavily luck based. I appreciated being able to work hard and manage to win a divine. Those divines that I worked so hard for, are more meaningful to me as well. I appreciate that some stuff is easier but don't appreciate that everything is being made easy and correspondingly the prizes are becoming lesser. Pretty much all of the divines are now locked behind either luck or pay a lot with the Tyche's crowns. And the luck promos were always my least favorite. I liked the ones you could figure out and solve like a puzzle and figure out exactly how much it would cost.

But yeah. the trophies. Like I said, no one asked them to change those, there were no complaints and now everyone is complaining. They want to change this trophy to "be aligned more with the others" (whatever that means) says to me less variety and more homogenizing. Legacera from Int'l suggested on youtube that they ADD this new trophy as a third rosette trophy instead of replacing the current one that many of us have spent a lot of time and passes trying to achieve and then lessen the requirements of the current one to make it more accessible to all players. I'm all for that, more variety and sounds like a win-win to me! Because even the current one can't actually be completed all the way unless one has a good competition rosette level divine and spends many many years entering comps. And Etrian isn't one of those divines.

The only reason I don't like the objectives compared to pass horses is that it gives you less passes per month (915 on average vs 1000 equivalent minimum per month up to 3000). I don't know if the HoP are worth the 85 drop, but I've been considerably unlucky with weekend hop beyond the random Divine. I don't think they're worth the 2085 drop from maximum.

Otherwise, yes, it's a neutral change. Easier than farming for months, sure.

I can't really speak to Yggdrasil vs pass horses. I never killed my horses before and still don't.

The anti-gambling laws matter is actually a good point. I'd forgotten about that factor. There are a number of things that have changed due to issues unrelated to player wants. Another example would be the removal of buying passes with equus; the feature was heavily abused, so it was removed; the same is true of the change in price of fodder.

If I were to guess, the change in question has a technical issue at its root. Either it was over taxing the allotted server space to keep track through horses being sold, or there was a way to exploit the way it calculated/rewarded. The change removes the owner aspect from the calculation. NOTE: This is personal speculation, not an official statement.

Trophies were an important part of the ranking calculation, though. Whether they still are or not isn't exactly clear to me, but for anyone pursuing rank, they're huge.

I think the rankings calculation may have changed. I've already worked my way up the trophy ranks by 100+ places since the trophy changes were made without that positively impacting my general rank. I was about 70th for trophies before the trophy changes and I've already gone from the 200s to the low 100s with changes to my game play, additional effort each day, and purchasing several divines needed to get trophies (a wild and a chimera). However, my general rank continues to fall despite high seniority and high trophy rank.

I don't keep a stockpile of visible cash ("wealth") so that's one possibility. However, the most likely possibility is that I have too many unskilled horses compared to VIPs who are on teams. I have considered a mass sell-off of unskilled foals in my inventory (to a friend), but it would be time-consuming to undo if that isn't a fix. Likewise, I have no time to spend skilling or purchasing lots of skilled horses to specifically raise the average skill level of my horses. The best I can do is to make sure all my divines are blupped as I go. They are a lot easier to get now as the game has evolved, and I consider them the most "worth" the time investment to work regularly, and they are immortal so I don't have to worry about various care issues and eventual need for P-Stones.

-romikat

The rewards have absolutely nothing to do with my objection to the proposed change. They even state that the rewards level will not be changed even if you lose the trophies. But for those pursuing rank as DragonTrickster said and for those who are simply completionists it is a potential issue. I strived to complete all trophies even before rewards were offered for these two reasons. The rewards have just been a nice bonus for something I would have done anyways.

romikat is an excellent example of someone who could be negatively affected by this. She is not a big blupper or skiller but she used to have a higher general rank and she clearly pays attention to it. Now, all the people who have lots of blupped high level horses on their acounts (from being on top teams) will be getting the benefit of the skillers winning rosettes and someone like romikat can't just buy one and use it to get the first few ranks on this trophy. Or perhaps it needs someone with a newer account that doesn't have the divines which romikat perhaps has used for this trophy anyway. But are all of these trophy changes, including this new one, removing the variety of ways one can achieve higher general ranking?

And here is my main objection to this change. They have promised that you won't lose your reward level but you WILL lose trophies. I'm at 180 trophies and I bought skillers to gain ranks on this trophy. I invested passes into this. I bought a top level SJ skiller for this reason and TB skiller and I put BMIs and spent a lot of time on these horses entering rosette comps that my horse could actually win. All of that effort is about to be taken away from me. I will lose trophies and drop in the trophy level ranking and won't be able to get them back probably until I manage to start winning rosette comps with a high level divine. I do luckily have Gulfaxi but I had not started with using him for this because it can be hard to find a rosette comp that doesn't already have a divine in it. Now I'm going to have to start from scratch and it will take me more than 3 months to get back to the level I'm at right now. I also was in the middle of doing this but now with this impending change, I have stopped trying to get to the 250 level. Maybe it won't make as much a difference in the buying of skillers as I think, there is still the prix but I am pretty sure I won't be buying any more top level skillers. And it removes an avenue that a new player could use to get some trophy ranks fairly quickly.

Does anyone know if Howrse is going to release any new breeds in the near future?

We only know one promo after this one, and there are no new breeds in that promo. That much we are certain of.

The German Saddle Horse is fairly new, so I do not expect a new breed for awhile.

Thank you. I know we have several breeds on here, but it would be great if there was more somewhat less known breeds. I think it would also be nice if there was more variation in the images that are used for the different breeds. Hopefully we will see some of these changes in the future.

Important information.

Yahoo!

Admins do listen to the players.

Yup. We just have to be united. So go team!

I never said they didn't; I said it felt like we weren't heard.

I'm still cautious - there's a lot of things we've been saying over and over that they haven't listened to whatsoever, and I'm not going to immediately turn around and feel like they're the best ever after rescinding a change that wasn't live on the game yet. But it does feel nice that something small happened. I just hope this is a sign of more things to come and not a "hey we massively messed up this one small thing so we're throwing you a bone" kind of thing. Call me skeptical if you'd like, but I do want to trust this.